Mark Holthe 0:00
Mark, welcome back to another episode of the Canadian immigration podcast. I am your host, Mark Holthe, with my co host, Alicia Backman Buhari, how are you today? Alicia,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 0:10
I'm doing well, Mark, it's all of a sudden, like it just flipped the switch, and we are in summer here in Alberta.
Mark Holthe 0:17
We sure are. It's awesome. You know, you you weather your way through the cold and and just the not so enticing weather, at least when it comes to whether or not you want to go outside to just beautiful days. And I, on Saturday, I played in a pickleball tournament all day, and didn't even realize so I've got a little bit more color than I usually do from nine to 5pm solid being outside under the sun, but oh my goodness, it is so nice to have summer back. Well, folks, we are continuing with another episode within our getting it right series, our Express Entry getting it right series. This is episode 168 and we're going to talk about something that may seem pretty mundane, but it is not, and that's language tests. So Alicia, let's jump right in here, and let's start off by why they matter. Like, why are language tests so important?
Alicia Backman-Beharry 1:11
Yeah, and I think probably now more than ever, language tests matter, and it's largely because there's not a lot you can do about your age. It takes a relatively long time to try to revamp your education, but language tests, if you study for them and you prepare appropriately, and you understand which test to take, how long they're valid and how to input them, because one of the things that I get from clients is, or people who are booking consults is, oh, I don't have a valid profile. And then, well, why don't you have a valid profile? Did you do your language test? Yes. Do you have, you know, one of the approved tests? Yes, okay, well, Oh, what did you actually put in your fields for your test pin and your registration number? And that's sometimes where, where things go wrong. So language tests make a gigantic difference in terms of eligibility. So whether you can even get your foot in the door in terms of CEC, Federal Skilled Worker or the Federal Skilled Trades, and then it also really, really impacts the overall CRS score. Yeah,
Mark Holthe 2:13
you know, it's interesting. I was thinking about this as I was meeting with some clients just the other day, and they'd kind of drug their feet a little bit with getting their language tests. And I said, Look, you need to get those done as quickly as possible, because they were going to be eligible under the education category based, you know, draw and at the time, there had not yet been one. And I said, Look, you guys need to write your test as quickly as possible so we can get your profile in. And in all honesty, if they had a valid test, we would have put it in right then, well, lo and behold, they booked the test the next week and and then we had an education draw like the next day. And so that's one piece of advice. We know we're going to talk about validity and all those kinds of things and expiry dates, but the one most important thing that people have control over, that they need to have ready at all times is their language tests. And I remember Alicia back when we had the TR to PR pathway that was just spontaneously announced by the government to transition temporary residents and essential workers to permanent resident status. And they were only going to do it, you know, one kind of race to file. And basically what happened was there was a mad rush on language testing centers, and the one bottleneck that allowed the government to somewhat restrict people from applying was that they had to have a valid language test. So there had initially projected 90,000 I think, applicants that they wanted to come through this program. Well, there probably could have been 200,000 that wanted to do it, but they couldn't get their language tests in time. So we always advise people to have those valid language tests alive and well, because you never know when there might be a program that pops up, or even just getting your profile in the pool, because a precursor to the TR to PR. And yes, this is all kind of a part of the pandemic and and the COVID days, but you'll remember Alicia back in, I think it was February the 13th, 2021 there were 27,332 people invited in that one massive CEC draw where they completely called everyone out. Now we're probably not going to get back to a day like that. You know, anytime soon it was quite an anomaly. But a lot of US immigration lawyers had mud on our faces because the lowest candidate drawn had a CIRA score of 75 which was just absurd. I would have considered someone unethical if they had, you know, charged someone to submit a profile at 75 points. But this is the world we're in, so language tests absolutely do matter. Okay, let's talk about the approved tests and a little bit about validity.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 4:52
And so we know that IELTS, IELTS has been the approved test for English, as well as cell, Pip, those have been around for a while. The. New one that's kind of new to the game for English is the Pearson Test for English. So this is now an improved test as well. And so there are three options for English. And make sure, though, that when you're booking your language tests that you are booking the correct version. And so if you Mark's got the screen up for people who are listening, make sure that if you go to the IRCC page on express entry, you go down to language test, it specifically says it's got to be the cell PIP general, it's got to be the IELTS General, it's got to be the PTE core. And so these are really important, and making sure that when you are properly booking that test, you're you're noting that is for IRCC. So that's also really important. And
Mark Holthe 5:43
sometimes people Alicia will get confused with the academic versions of these, and that's more often than not. That's the ones that are going to be an issue. Now I'm also going to flip over to, oh, we're still alive. Good. This is, oh, is it alive? Yeah, we're still alive here. This is a, this is an, kind of an active profile. I'm just showing here a little dummy account. When you go in here, and we're going to dive into this a little bit deeper into the study in languages, you'll see that when you choose, and we'll go down to languages, when you choose the type of test that you're taking here, you will see that there are, there are various options to it. And so when it says IELTS, and I know this is a little bit small for some people, maybe I can enlarge it just a little bit for those watching on the video version here. But the IELTS, you can see the test results. There is only the IELTS General Training, so there's not a lot of confusion there. Sometimes, when people type, you know, put in cell Pip, they'll see, oh, wait a minute, I'm supposed to take the CELPIP General Test. But which one is it? Is it general 2014, or is it CELPIP G? And if we go back to the testing instructions, it says the CELPIP General Test. And it's a real bugger, Alicia, to try for someone who doesn't know how to you know to navigate this what it means. So ultimately we come back and say, Okay, well, which one is it? Well, Alicia, we'll settle that. Which one is it? Well, cell, Pip G. So PIP G is the one that you're going to choose. Okay? And so I just wanted to bring that up for some people when they're trying to figure this out. We'll get into some other things here in a second. But, but, yeah, Alicia, like. So ultimately, it's, it's critical that you choose the right test,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 7:18
yeah. And then so for that's those are the ones for English, the ones for French are the TCF or the TEF. And so this is also making sure that you're picking the correct versions. There's only two test testing facilities for French language results. And then we will get into a little bit of the wrinkles in terms of how to enter those French results, because that can get a little bit confusing as
Mark Holthe 7:39
well, indeed. Okay, let's talk about how they equate all of these. So each of these testing organizations, generally speaking, oh,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 7:48
sorry, Mark. I'm gonna hit the validity before we move on. Oh, yeah, yeah, we
Mark Holthe 7:52
better do that. Okay, so these are not valid forever, you guys. What is the what's the duration Alicia,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 7:59
two years. And so if you actually scroll down on the same page on IRC C's website, it does talk about how long your tests are valid for. And so it'll literally say, make sure that your tests are valid on by the time that you submit your profile and by the time that you actually submit the eapr. So both of those days are very important. And the confusing thing I've noticed over the years for some clients, there we go. So how long are your tests valid? Make sure that your tests must not be older than two years old. Must be less than two years old when you are actually completing your EE profile and when you're submitting your eapr. So two different times. The thing that's confusing for people is that if you look at one of the test results, it'll actually have the date that you sat the test, and then it'll have the date that those test results were signed or issued or sent to you. Make sure that it is less than two years from the date that you sat the test, so be careful
Mark Holthe 8:59
not the results the actual day that you took it Yes, and you'll see here, one of the things also to be aware of is when you get your invitation to apply. It's possible that your language tests could be expiring in that kind of middle period of 60 days before you actually submit your eapr. And if they are expiring during that time period. You need to pay close attention to that. You need to actually rewrite now. Ultimately, we will advise our clients all the time that if we see there's any chance that they're going to be expiring, we advise them to go ahead and redo it now. But it is possible, if you get your invitation to apply and your profile is locked when you're submitting your eapr, if you know that your language tests are going to be expiring, you can quickly rewrite them and then include the new information in there the updated scores for IRCC purposes, to show that yes, you continue to meet the threshold that you were first you know that in which you first received your i Your ITA, now if you were to write it and get a worse score. Or that's a factor that you have to, you know, you'd probably have to decline your ita in that circumstance if your CRS score fell below the the round of invitation level. So be aware of that. But once you and maybe I'll ask you, Alicia, so when are the tests locked in for the purposes of express entry?
Alicia Backman-Beharry 10:17
So after you've actually submitted your complete eapr, then they're locked in. But just like you were saying, mark up until if you have tests that expire in that 60 day window after you've got an ita before you've actually submitted the eapr, and you're waiting for, I don't know, employment letters or something like that, then you might have to retest and make sure that you get the same scores that you were invited under. Yeah.
Mark Holthe 10:39
And lots of people were concerned, oh my goodness, like my language tests are going to expire after I submit my eapr. Well, that's okay. You're you're locked in in those circumstances. Okay. Next here is the fact that we have, well, if we jump back here just again, we know that the language tests here, they all have different numbering systems, and so if, depending on what system, which program you use, there's going to be a different numbering sequence that are listed on your results. Well, there has to be a way of standardizing them. And so this leads us to our next topic, which is the understanding the Canadian language benchmark.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 11:20
Yeah. And so this is where it gets a little bit confusing, because there are three programs, right? So we've got our Federal Skilled Trades, we've got our Federal Skilled Worker, and we have our CEC, and you can be eligible for any of them in order to create a valid profile, but there are minimum language requirements for CEC, FSW and FST. And so this is where the candidate needs to make sure that when they have that language test result, that they know that they're hitting the minimum requirements for the category under which they want to apply. And this is where CEC we know that if you've got a tier zero or one in terms of your primary occupation, then you have to be hitting those CLB sevens across the board. French the NCLC seven across the board. If you have a primary occupation, tier two or three, then you do have a CLB or an NCLC five across the board. And sometimes people say, Well, my average is seven. Is that okay to hit minimum eligibility? And it's not if you actually look at the program requirements every single field. So speaking, reading, listening and writing all has to equate to at least the CLB level that you're looking for.
Mark Holthe 12:33
If we go to the Federal Skilled Worker Program, it's a little bit different the English itself here, as you can see, CLB seven and French and CLC seven, this is the threshold. So if you do not have, if you're outside of Canada or qualifying or applying to the Federal Skilled Worker Program, then the CLB seven is, is the threshold. And sometimes people get a little confused when they're comparing the Canadian Experience Class, which allows for a little bit lower minimum entry. But to be honest, Alicia, it doesn't really matter too much, because if you're trying to get an ita in today's Express Entry world, and you do not have, not just a CLB seven, but even more, a CLB nine, you're probably not going to have a real good shot at receiving an ita because of how competitive things are. Now on the list, we have Federal Skilled Trade Program, but to be honest, Alicia, like we really are not seeing anything. There's no specific draws for Federal Skilled Trade. And anyone that is in a Federal Skilled Trade generally is already qualified for CEC or FSW anyways, and so we're not even going to waste time talking about that, but let's look at the equivalency. Okay, Alicia, and
Alicia Backman-Beharry 13:43
I just want to jump in with one thing on the FSW as well. Keep in mind that there are two point selection grids. There's the minimum selection factors of 67 points, and that's where language score is also going to give you a minimum selection Factor score, so make sure that language is qualifying you for that 67 pass mark. And then what we are looking at here is how that language translates to the CRS score, minimum eligibility,
Mark Holthe 14:12
yeah. And when we get to the language ability here, there's a minimum. And then within the selection factors, like Alicia said, there's also scores that are going to help a person to hit the 67 point threshold, which allows you to get into the pool. And many people, Alicia, we've talked about this repeatedly, just don't even understand that this is happening. And you know, with so many people in Canada, CEC is really driving the ship to a large extent now. But you know, the Federal Skilled Worker Program, if you happen to fall within one of the category based draws, and you're in the pool because you are an FSW, this is what's happening in the background that allows you to get your profile into the pool. If you're not hitting the 67 point threshold, you're not even going to get
Alicia Backman-Beharry 14:53
in. Yeah, and specifically with French, like we've seen a lot of the Francophone draws, and that's because lar. Actually, people are coming in through CEC, but some of them are coming in through the FSW, but they have those those points for French. Yeah,
Mark Holthe 15:07
exactly. Okay, let's shift gears once again, and let's take a look at English versus French, given the fact you brought that up, so we know that we are in and still in, and will likely be in the golden age of francophone immigration for at least the next three years or four years. So our Liberal government that was recently elected once again, our prime minister Carney announced that French was going to be a significant component of those candidates that they're targeting to live outside the province of Quebec. So those that are eligible for Express Entry are going to have greater opportunities, even in many cases, than English applicants who are applying through Express Entry. And as we go through the comprehensive ranking system, we can see that within the criteria, there are a lot of points Alicia for people that speak French now, being able to speak English and going through, you know, the having really high human capital is still going to give you a shot when you have experience in Canada. But for anyone who's looking to apply from outside of the country, unless you have French or you somehow fit within one of the category based draws, it's really, really going to be unlikely. We know that there have been Francophone draws. We have had some category based draws. We've had one recent CEC draw that's just been small. But ultimately, French is really dominating the equation. So let's talk a little bit about this English French, because we have lots of clients that say, How can I increase my score? What do you tell them? Alicia, yeah,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 16:42
so first off, basically you're not going to get points if you can't speak at NCLC level five, right? So really, there's very, very few points if you're looking at under kind of a basic proficiency level in French. But exactly so we can take a look at the point selection factor grids, and this is where it's going to show us. Okay, well, we know that there's a different score if you are a single applicant versus if you have a spouse that's accompanying you. And so take a look here, because if you do have a spouse, then you're looking at the principal applicant score. And you can see for the first language, whatever your primary language is. And this is another thing you can pick, right if you are fluent in both English and French, you can try to pick which language you're going to list as your as your primary first language. And if you do it the way that's the most beneficial for you, then that's fine, as long as you have the language test scores to back it up. So here's what's happening with the first language and then you've got your second official language test proficiency. And so of course, we know that yes, CLB, seven usually is the minimum that is required for most Fs, well, for all FSW, and then for most CEC. But when we're also looking at the second official language scores. This is where, if your primary language is English, if we're looking at French here, then anything four or less is not going to give you any points, right? So out of speaking, reading, listening and writing, it's going to be zero. So you have to hit that CLB five or six in order to get one point per language ability, or hopefully the CLB seven, which is giving you three points per language ability. But then, not only could you get 12 points because you're hitting four times three, you also have a compounding and so this is where there are the bonus 50 points only if you're hitting that NCLC level seven, yeah.
Mark Holthe 18:40
And as we go through this, I want to emphasize that people that are bilingual, that speak English and French, have a massive opportunity. So not only within the core human capital factors, you get points for the first official language. And like Alicia discussed, it's up to 100 and what is it? What's the total? I was just looking here, 100 and I think it's like 20. I don't have the final. Let's see 136 right. There we go. Okay, I was just going up here. Okay, so yeah, so you can see here, official language is proficiency. If you maximized everything, okay, both your English and French were perfect. You know, up to 150 points, if you had a spouse, up to 160 points with a common law partner. But the differentiator that that really kicks in is when you have French and like you talked about, as you go through this there are we have our skill transfer, ability factors, which that, which take combinations of of of good language ability, and couple it together with other factors to give really like some significant bonus points. And one of them is when you have foreign work experience with good official language. And once again, that CLB seven is the magical mark for the initial threshold to get points you. But CLB nine is really where the rubber hits the road. So there's up to 100 extra points that can be awarded through these skill transferability factors. And when you have three years of foreign work experience and a CLB nine, you're getting 50 points. If your CLB is just seven, which is kind of the entry for the Federal Skilled Worker Program, well, right off the bat, you're losing 25 points. So this is so so critical, so critical within this equation. And then I want to jump down further here to these additional points. And this really is, is this is really what makes the difference, Alicia. So as you can see here, French, if you have English. So let's say you don't even speak English, okay, or you didn't take the English test and it's just French. If you have an NCLC seven, you're going to get an extra 25 bonus points. But if you can just hit a CLB five or higher on English with your French, you're getting an extra 50. So what does that mean? It means that someone who has English points and then they have French, whether it's their second language or otherwise. But they're hitting an NCLC seven. They can get, not just 50, but if we jump all the way back up here to our language, our second official language. Again, you can see here that the second official language, if you, if you're perfect in French, it's going to, it's going to boost you up a maximum of 2524 more points. So it's literally a 74 point swing for people who are fluent in French. It's and it is a complete game changer. Complete game changer. All right, now we've talked about, and we've the golden age of francophone immigration. Let's jump down here and let's take a look at what you know, what factors come into actually choosing which test to take. Because, like we said, we've got options here, right? We've got within it comes to English. We have the CELPIP, the IELTS, the PTE core, the Pearson, and then the French, the TF and TCF. So which ones and Alicia? How do you advise your clients when you know when they're saying, well, which test should I take? What kind of factors do you look at? And
Alicia Backman-Beharry 22:10
some of them are just practical. Some countries don't offer all three tests, and so you're going to have to just look at where you are and what is the availability and like you're talking about at the beginning Mark, when people had the PR pathways that are kind of one and done, or the ones where you're looking for racing to file, sometimes people actually have to go to a different city or travel to go take their language test because they realize time's so precious right now that they want To get that language result as soon as possible. So sometimes, even if the test is not available in your city, take a look and see if there's like, an hour or two hour drive that you can make, and you can go and sit a test, and you could do it sooner rather than later. So that's one thing, just practical availability of where that test is being offered and when. And so you'll be able to see what all the testing dates are when you book that online, and hopefully you'll be able to get one sooner rather than later. Usually, they're they're decently timely with their responses in terms of when they get back those test results, but if there are large delays, that's something you want to take into account as well, and
Mark Holthe 23:21
it's interesting. Alicia, you know, there, when people are trying to level up their language, like they're French, there, there's now, there's a lot of tools, a lot of resources out there. I just want to point out too quick for those who are watching, so if you go to our YouTube channel here, you'll see that I did an Express Entry live Q and A with with John K he specializes in leveling up French, in particular the TEF and within our within the Express Entry accelerator. Course you'll see here, if we go to think it's in module three, let's see which one is it here? I've got so many things. Okay, right here. It's in module one. I have a bonus lesson specifically with Jean, that has just some tremendous tips and strategies on improving French. It's one thing to kind of get started, but it's another thing to refine and be able to level up that score and to get that CLB, you know, NCLC, level seven is, as we've looked at the criteria and the breakdown of the scores for CRS, it is so, so vital. So I encourage you to do that. But on, you know, online, there's a lot of different resources to help people with their French but I encourage you to take a look at that, that information that we do have on our YouTube channel. Okay, let's slide over again here, Alicia, and let's just chat about just preparing for success. And you know, sometimes, like you identified, you don't have a choice when you're choosing a testing location, you have to take what's what's in front of you, but the tests are a little bit different. Everything from. Pearson to IELTS to self, especially with the English and, you know, the Pearson and SALP are Canadian, kind of, you know, they're they're Canadian generated exams that are focused on the way we speak in English in Canada, whereas the IELTS is more international England, you know, Australia and so sometimes terminology and language and accents and things like that play a different role when you're trying to understand. You know, I spent time in Portugal learning Portuguese when I was a young kid and And ironically, I find the Brazilian Portuguese easier for me to understand than the continental Portuguese. And for some people, it may be that if you learn to speak English in Canada or the US, and then you're trying to do the IELTS, it may be that you're understanding like you're listening. Might be impacted by that and so. And another good thing to identify too, is that if you don't do very well on one test, then go write another one and see if you have better success with that test. And you know, when it comes to these kind of factors, especially preparing for success, lots of people ask us Alicia about retesting, and so maybe you can just touch on a little bit on that as we wrap up our episode.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 26:16
So some people don't realize that you can take these tests as many times as you want. So you can take the cell PEP, and if you don't do well on the first cell Pip, You can retake the cell Pip, or you could try the IELTS, or you could go and write the Pearson, and it is up to you. It doesn't have to be the most recent test date result. You can choose any one of those tests that you want. Now the problem is you cannot pick and choose. You can't say, oh, the first time I took cell Pip, I got a 10 in reading, and the second time I took it, I got an eight, but my overall score was higher. So I'm going to pick and choose just one category. You've got to keep whatever full test result it is, and that's the one you go with. This is also important just because for IELTS, they have some one skill retakes, those are not counted for IRCC. So just keep in mind that whatever test you take, it's the full test, but you can retake that test, and you can use whatever one is still valid and most advantageous to you.
Mark Holthe 27:18
All right. Well, that's kind of an overview of the language tests, and like we identified at the beginning of the episode, these are not to be taken lightly, and it's important to pay attention to a lot of things when you're doing it. Obviously, you want to do everything that you can to maximize your scores, because this is the one area where you have control over it. You know, getting a perfect reference letter relies on your employer being willing to do so, you know, when it comes to your educational credential assessments, well, it comes down to the test the ECA organization and how they equate your foreign education to Canadian education. So you don't have control over that, but the language tests you do, and it's something that you can work at and improve. And people say, Well, how do I score? CRS, points? Alicia, how do I increase my score? Well, yeah, you can go to school, but generally speaking, you'd have to go to school for a whole nother year. And if you're already 30, any additional points you may get are going to be offset by age points that you're losing. But people that are diligent, and we've seen some pretty amazing people that that really dedicate themselves to improving their language. That's something that you have control over, and you can do in the shortest period of time. But it's, it's, it's a reality that people are just going to have to continue fighting towards and working hard at and trying to, you know, just put themselves in the best position possible in an ultra competitive Express Entry world.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 28:43
And Mark, I remembered that we want to circle back to that little screenshot, because when we're talking about inputting those test results, so mark actually went to his account and he pulled down this little radio button Help tool. And people get confused about this absolutely all the time, because when you're inputting your test results scores, especially for French, it is very confusing in terms of what digits do you use, because there are a number of digits here, and the radio button is not directly where you would need the help. You have to scroll up a few radio buttons in order to get this little help bubble that is going to help direct you. So make sure that you go check the radio button marks. Pulled it up for people who are watching this. But if you're listening to the podcast without the video, make sure that when you are looking at your Express Entry profile, you go up to that radio button and it'll say, you know, for IELTS, enter the test report form number only. It's the bottom right corner of the page. So for TEF, enter the first part of the attestation number without the hyphen. This number is made up of two sets of digits separated by a hyphen. It is at the bottom of the first page of the test. If you have a TEF at test SEO that has two score columns, please enter the scores from the equivalence on CNN score. Column, right? So there's, here are some things you need to know. And then for the language test pin, you also have instructions about which digits that you're using.
Mark Holthe 30:11
Now, I'm just working as fast as I can here. I wanted to pull up the actual site. Okay, I'm back up and running. I'm going to shift this over and just show you guys this. Because this is a, yeah, this is a big deal. Let me just close out this one. Minimize. Got a few little windows going on here. Okay, so when you, when you go into your profile here, what Alicia is just referring to, for those who are watching, and if you're listening, go watch the video here, see if it will open up. It's a busy day. The portal, for the first time yesterday, Alicia started glitching on me. I hadn't seen it glitch the way it way it has in the past, and it looks like we're right at the moment when I want to share some some good insight here. Okay, we're back up and running. When you go to the studying languages section, like Alicia is talking about, it's not terribly intuitive, you guys. And so if you go to official languages, and then we, once we're here, you can see, you ask the language test taken, and each of these has little radio buttons beside it, right So, and it's ironic that down here, it asks for the language test result form or certificate number. See the Help button language test? See it actually tells you, I don't know why they don't just have the button right here, but it says, see the Help button for language test taken. So then you go back up to here, and then where it says language test taken, you click on it. That's the one that we pulled up. And so it gives specific instructions on what you're pulling out, especially with the French. It is, it is complicated Alicia. And then that's how you know what to put into here, because if you do it wrong, understand that you are going to be in a situation where you could get your application rejected. So just a few little last tips, and Thanks for catching that. Alicia, All right, everybody, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Canadian immigration podcast. We will see you again in another Express Entry getting it right series, take care. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
