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Music. This episode of the Canadian immigration podcast is sponsored by the Canadian immigration Institute, one of the best sources of video content on Canadian immigration to help you navigate your way through the Canadian immigration process. Head on over to the YouTube channel, where there's tons of video content, and you can join mark yes myself in a number of live video streams, Q and A's all designed to help you navigate your way through this crazy Canadian immigration process. When you're done there, like and subscribe and then head on over to the Canadian Immigration institute.com where you can find all those awesome DIY courses that I've been talking about. Thank you, Canadian immigration Institute. You are the sponsor of this amazing little podcast. You
Unknown Speaker 0:59
music.
Sponsor 1:05
The Canadian immigration process can be complex and frustrating with the Canadian Immigration Department making it virtually impossible to speak to an officer. There are few places to turn to for trusted information. The Canadian immigration podcast was created to fill this void by offering the latest on immigration law, policy and practice. Please welcome ex immigration officer and Canadian immigration lawyer Mark Holthe as he is joined by industry leaders across Canada sharing insight to help you along your way.
Mark Holthe 1:52
Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Canadian immigration podcast. This is episode 166 of our Express Entry getting it right series. This one is focused on doctors. So if you are a doctor or a healthcare professional, these are some of the mistakes that you most commonly make. And Alicia, we see these quite a bit in our firm, don't we?
Alicia Backman-Beharry 2:13
Yeah, it's really hard mark, because often, you know, doctors are very smart people. They have been going to school for many, many years. They have to do a lot of intellectual processing, and usually they're fairly competent, and so often I have a consult with a physician, or somebody who is a medical professional, and they say, Oh, can't I do express entry on my own? Isn't this pretty straightforward? And then they have filed an application on their own, and they get an additional document request letter, or they get their application returned, or they get an invitation to apply, and all of a sudden they realize, oh, I completely misinterpreted a few things.
Mark Holthe 2:51
Yes. All right, well, let's draw, let's, let's just jump right in Alicia and let's take a look at this. All right, so we've talked a little bit about this, you know some of these issues, but like you said, it's it's not easy, and it doesn't matter who you are. There are nuances with everything that happens within immigration, and the changes happen so quickly that often what worked before doesn't work now. But there are times, as is the case with doctors, where there were rules that were very draconian and very ridiculous that prevented physicians from claiming, for example, Canadian work experience, and now, if they do things properly, they have the ability to claim it because of different policy adjustments, which we'll talk about. But why don't we start right now with one we see a lot, and that's the wrong educational credential assessment,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 3:42
and so most people are accustomed to, okay, we go to a certain education credential assessment organization, and that's where we make sure that our degree, our foreign degree, is equivalent to a Canadian degree. Well, that's all fine and good, except if you have a certain Knock, and so this is where it's really important. So it's not for all medical professionals, but if you happen to be either an architect, a doctor, a pharmacist, a specialist in surgery, a GP or family physician, this is where you actually have to go to a different organization, a professional, designated professional body to obtain that ECA. And so this is where, if you happen to be on one of these three knocks, so a specialist in clinical and laboratory medicine. So that's knock 31100, or a specialist in surgery. Knock 31101, or a GP or family physician. So the knock is 31102, then really, those particular people must go to the Medical Council of Canada, and this is on the Express Entry IRCC website. But many people don't realize this, and I've literally had consults with doctors who think that they have gone through kind of the provincial registration. Process through their province to make sure that their foreign credentials are recognized, and they think that that credentialing process is what they need to put into their education credential assessment, and that is not the case. And so this can get your entire application returned or refused. In the worst case, they could say you're misrepresenting because you put some sort of placeholder number in your Express Entry profile, and they literally thought that when they got that number from the provincial accreditation, that was what they put in. And it's not the same thing.
Mark Holthe 5:34
All right, let's talk about including a Canadian spouse within the Express Entry application.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 5:41
And so this often happens where we have doctors or medical professionals who come to Canada. Sometimes they finish their education, maybe in Canada, or they do a residency in Canada, and they marry a Canadian citizen, and then they go to file their own Express Entry application, and all of a sudden, the question asks them, Well, are you married? Are you including a spouse? And it's super confusing. They're not sure what to say. And so a lot of my clients have come to me in and they've said, Well, wait a minute, I mistakenly included a spouse. I have an ITA. Do I decline my ita because my whole profile is messed up. Now, what do I do? So one of the articles that I wrote a while ago was, if my spouse is Canadian, should they be listed as accompanying or non accompanying in my Express Entry profile? So this is a good point of reference. You can go and take a look at that article, but basically, if your spouse or common law partner. So this is also important. Sometimes people move in they're in a spousal like relationship for 12 months continuously, and all of a sudden somebody who didn't used to be your spouse becomes your spouse. And it is still important to declare anybody who you are married to, because that's important for admissibility screening and basically, to be honest with IRCC, but declaring somebody and including them are two separate things. And the other way that this can go wrong is sometimes people think, Oh, I have my spouse has Canadian siblings. I ought to be able to get points for my spouse's Canadian siblings. And that's not true either. It also can affect if you're looking at Federal Skilled Worker. It could also affect the settlement funds if you are a physician and you have to make sure to meet those settlement funds. So take a read of what to do if you're married to a Canadian, or if you are in a common law relationship with a Canadian.
Mark Holthe 7:39
All right, next challenge is the fact that internships do not count for CEC purposes,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 7:45
yeah. And so there's a big difference here between inside Canada work experience versus outside Canada work experience. So for foreign work experience, we know that internships do count, but only if they are paid. And so one of the things I've noticed with my physician clients is that some of the universities or educational institutions are a little bit interesting in terms of how they pay people. Sometimes there's reduced tuitions, sometimes there's stipends, sometimes there's living allowances. So it might get really tricky in terms of whether you can count that foreign work experience, because you've got to show paid work. So that's one thing to keep in mind. But generally the rule is that foreign work experience, you can count internships, if it's paid inside Canada, is a different matter. And so if you are a physician who actually did your schooling in Canada, and you did an internship in Canada, even if that internship is paid, it does not count for CEC Canadian work experience points. And lots of people don't realize this. They also sometimes think, well, we've got to list all of our work history in our work history and our Express Entry profile, and that's also not the case. So keep in mind that paid internships within Canada, if you are a full time student, while you are doing that paid internship, which you would be on a internship or Co Op work permit, because those are only given to full time students. That doesn't count for CEC and so sometimes also, what happens is people are working part time, and then they want to the clinic wants to keep them on, and they're still continuing their work. And then, of course, the school is going to give them notification of completion of their studies. And one of the things that's super, super important for everybody, for all students, is that they completely stop working on the earliest day that the school sends them an email or a letter saying you've completed your program, they get their transcripts, or they get their diploma, which is normally the last thing that happens, but must stop working completely and entirely until the day they submit their post grad work permit, assuming that their study permit is still valid and they're eligible for PGWP. And only then could you start the clock running if you. Have a high skilled Canadian job. Gotcha.
Mark Holthe 10:02
Now, what many people probably don't know or haven't realized? Well, I should say most people, I guess, if you're in Canada, you now are, if you got down this path and you didn't realize it, are rudely being brought to reality, but self employed work experience in Canada doesn't usually count, and so for many, many years, this impacted significantly on physicians, who typically are have super high human capital, would almost always get invitations to apply. They would never be eligible for the Canadian Experience Class because most of them work on a fee for service basis. And so for years, IRCC would refuse the CC applications of physicians when they were the most important candidate that we could probably have, you know, given, you know, to be given an invitation to apply and become permanent residents. But fortunately, Alicia, fortunately, we have a world now where that is not necessarily the case, like we talked about for physicians in certain occupations. Do you want to just expand on that just a little bit more? I know we've talked about the ECA thing, but now we're in another world with the self employed.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 11:23
So okay, the general rule is that self employment in Canada doesn't count, just like we've talked about. So if you are in a situation where you're an independent contractor, where you have a fee for service arrangement, where you are not an employee, and this is where you can probably look at cra definitions, Canada Revenue Agency in terms of, you know, the tools of work, the amount of discretion that you have in taking on clients, and all sorts of things. But if it is a self employment situation, the general rule is it does not count for CEC, and that's in the ministerial instructions, and it's also in the regulations. I do, again, want to to make a distinction between inside Canada self employment and outside Canada self employment. So keep in mind that if you are outside Canada and you're self employed as a medical professional, that's okay. That counts. The one caveat I would give about that is I have a number of clients who are like therapists or counselors, and in those situations, sometimes they work through a clinic, but they are paid based on how many clinic sessions that they're doing on an hourly basis with their clients, and they're technically independent contractors. And then it really matters how many hours you're accumulating in your foreign work experience, and so it's important to make sure that you are working full time equivalent hours, so at least 30 hours a week. And if it's less than 30 hours a week, you've got to count less in your foreign work experience for self employed. So putting that aside now, yes, you can count self employment, if it's foreign work experience. But if we are talking about Canadian work experience, the general rule is you can't but there is now a temporary public policy. So if you go to IRCC and you look at CEC, this is where it matters. We're looking at Canadian Experience Class eligibility, and we're looking specifically at can you claim Canadian work experience points? And so if you go down on this page and you take a look at students, it says, Yeah, students don't count. Internships don't count, but there's an exemption for physicians. And so in April of 2023, so two years ago now, there was the ministerial instruction temporary public policy that says, Yes, we are going to rectify the situation where we realize that most doctors who are coming to Canada and working are doing so on a fee for service arrangement, most of the time they are working for publicly funded health care facilities. And we have an interest to try to retain and bring in
Mark Holthe 14:05
public interest, a slight public interest in retaining the doctors that we have given the horrible shortage that we're experiencing right now.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 14:14
So they've said, All right, we are going to make an exemption, but reading the fine print is always important. And so this is the article that I that I'm writing or that will be published on our website that we're talking about today in this podcast goes through the fine points of this, but this is the public policy itself. And the interesting thing about this is that it was published before and actioned before the change to arranged employment points. And so there's now a few things that are working in conjunction that probably require clarification. So this public policy actually kind of was two pronged. It came into effect almost exactly two years ago, but it had to do with whether physicians could claim a. Employment points as one prong, and then the other prong was, Can physicians claim Canadian work experience points? So we'll kind of set aside the arranged employment section right now. I'll get to that in our in our next point, but for the purposes of claiming Canadian work experience in certain circumstances. Yes, physicians can now claim Canadian work experience, even if it was self employed, fee for service work, as long as it was a publicly funded medical service, and as long as those physicians are in one of those three knocks. So again, it's got to be the specialist physicians or general practitioners, specialist in clinical and laboratory medicine, or a general practitioner and family physician. So keep in mind, it's still only those three knocks. And so I've actually had some clients who got confused because they were looking at the old knocks under the 2016 so if you look at the temporary public policy, they've got, you know, kind of two different subsections under Section two, sub B, sub i, and then I, I. It talks about the old knocks, under the knock, 2016 but really, you know, most things should now be transitioned over to the to the new knock, the 2021 knock. And so we know it's only the 3110031102 or the 31101 so those are the only knocks. And make sure you're looking at the 2021 knock codes. So only those occupations, but if it works, you can now claim those Canadian work experience points.
Mark Holthe 16:41
and that's a big, big deal. So all of you doctors out there who working in Canada, you can thank all those predecessor doctors who got their applications rejected and their corresponding you know, local politicians or whoever was lobbying on their behalf to have these these changes actually be a reality for you. So we're super excited, and we've talked a little bit about that public policy already. Let's dive in and just talk about another error, which is claiming a job offer by mistake. And this becomes complicated now, because there's going to be lots of people that think they still have job offers that haven't been watching the world as it's shifted, and the Earth has pivoted a little bit on its access to the point where now there are no CRS points for job offers. But there are other mistakes Alicia that people make.
Alicia Backman-Beharry 17:32
And one thing right before we move on what you could do for self employment is, you know, the funny thing is, you have an obligation to correctly identify when you can claim self employment and what kind of work experience you have. So when you're doing your Express Entry profile, every item has a line item, and then when you do the Modify and expand upon that job, there is a little tiny check box under each one that says self employment, and you have to say yes or no. You have to check that box or not check that box. And many of the physicians or medical professionals that I work with didn't even notice that there's a little self employment box. And so if you were working outside of Canada, you know, and you were doing independent work as a fee for service physician, check that little box, because otherwise, if you don't, it could be viewed as misrep The other thing is, the weird thing is mark, and maybe you can go back to the website where it shows, you know, claiming Canadian work experience, the government literally now tells you at the very bottom, it says, you know, if you're going to use this Canadian work permit exemption Under the temporary public policy, don't click the self employed work check box under the work experience in Canada. And so it's really bizarre.
Mark Holthe 18:48
I didn't even notice that. Alicia,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 18:51
Yeah, this is super important, because now you're not actually supposed to click the box for the Canadian work experience if you qualify under the temporary public policy, but you wouldn't that's not intuitive. So beware, there's there's a few minefields here, and then we can move over to the claiming job offer points. But so the other thing I did was, like I wrote an article a while ago about the three scenarios under which you can properly claim arranged employment and that article has been hugely popular. There is an explainer video as well. And then, of course, we know that the world changed. March 25 2025 the government had announced earlier that, yes, they're going to take away those 50 arranged employment points, or the 200 arranged employment points if you were in a NOC 00, occupation. But it is still important, and so I completely revised my article so now it's applicable after March 25 2025 and the reason that job offer answering the job offer questions properly in your profile. And your eapr are very important is because now it can still make a difference in terms of Federal Skilled Worker eligibility for the selection grid, because there's a possible 15 points out there up for grabs, and many physicians are over the age of 29 because by the time they completed all their education and then they got their work experience, and they're eligible to apply under express entry there probably or many of them are over the age of 29 so sometimes, if you're a foreign skilled worker and you're coming to Canada from outside Canada, like an American physician, for example, those meeting those arranged employment or job offer points for The Selection grid if you can get those 15 points, that might make a really big difference. So I still go through the three scenarios, because they're still applicable to the selection factor grid points, and they are also still applicable to who has to show settlement funds. And so we know that if you are invited under CEC, you don't have to use or show settlement funds. But if you actually were invited under federal skilled worker and you can properly fit into one of the three scenarios, then you also may not have to show settlement funds most of the time. You also have to have that valid work permit already. That's employer specific. So just keep that in mind. But take a look at the article about, you know, can I claim points for a job offer in my Express Entry application?
Mark Holthe 21:36
All right, I'm just trying to fill this out because I wanted to show our viewers exactly what that is in the Express Entry portal, but it's going to take me a while, so we're gonna, I'm gonna come back to that, because I want to show them the check box. So hang tight. Those of you who are watching, we will definitely come back to that. Okay, next on our list here is, let's if I get this right, we have so many different topics. Here is the existing work permit issues Alicia, so you have to pay attention to the kind of work permit that you have. Why is that an issue for doctors in the context of express entry?
Alicia Backman-Beharry 22:15
So many medical professionals who are working here on a work permit have done so through sometimes the employer, the medical clinic or facility, is able to get a Labor Market Impact Assessment, and sometimes they were able to get an LMI exemption. So maybe that person has come under a free trade agreement. But usually it's not. Usually it is the post doctoral fellow or a medical resident, or a dental resident or a Medical Research Fellow, and so there are specific LMIA exemptions that require an employer portal to be filed, or maybe that LMIA, but in either case, the employer has already put a whole bunch of terms. In terms of the job title, the job duties, the pay, so the salary, or if it's a fee for service arrangement, they've put that into either the LMIA or the employer portal, as well as the benefits. And sometimes it gets very confusing for people to say, Oh, well, what am I going to claim as my primary occupation, and what am I going to claim from my work experience, and if you already have a work work permit and it's under a particular knock, there are big alarm bells that go off anytime a client says, oh, but actually, I want to claim it as this knock instead. So if you ever try to deviate from your knock or your job duties, or your pay or your location of work is different than what it was under the LMIA or under the employer portal offer. There's a whole can of worms that need to be addressed. So you'll need to make sure that you are working with authorization to ever claim Canadian work experience, and if you're not working under the terms of your current Canadian work permit, that is a big problem, and could make you an admissible so if you have an existing work permit, and also it's hard, because when I talk to my physician clients, usually they have an institutional employer who's been Working with some sort of immigration lawyer or consulting organization, or they've done it in house, and they just file their employer portal offers, or they just file that LMIA, and they don't necessarily show it to to the doctor. And so I say, Well, the first thing that you need is to get a copy of what exactly was put into the portal or represented to ESDC on the LMIA, because you can't walk into this blind. You've got to make sure that your job duties are according with what was put into those existing work permits. Yeah.
Mark Holthe 24:54
All right. Without further ado, let's see 12345, it's this. In here in our list, you guys, this one so self employed in Canada doesn't usually count. What I wanted to share was just this. I just have pulled up the Express Entry profile. And just to show what Alicia was talking about, I'm going to have a reiterate this, once again, this weird little nuance. So when you go through here, you fill this information in. You're on the work history section. When you say, do you have work history? You want to claim, yes. Then it asks for the year, the hours, the title, and you can see right here, employer, company name, there's this little lovely box right here, so break it down for us again. Alicia, if I say that my employer is Holthe immigration law, and it is me, I'm going to say that I'm self employed. You know, if I am a medical doctor, and this is, we'll call this family medical clinic in Lethbridge, and I'm a doctor, what do I do here, if I want to claim that work experience for Express Entry, do I click it, or do I don't collect it because I'm a fee for service, Doc,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 26:03
yeah. And so this is the weird thing where take a screenshot from my RCCs web page, but this is where you actually would not click that it is self employed work, because you want to still get credit. And so this is where you take a screenshot and you say, okay, if I'm sure that I am a doctor. So let's say you're a family physician. You know that you're under the right knock. You know that it is a fee for service, but it is a publicly funded health care facility and service that you provide. Then when you actually fill this out in your Express Entry profile, you do not check the self employed work box, and you're going to put all this in your letter of explanation, but this is where many people can get tripped up, because this is super counter intuitive, and you would think that this could be misrepresentation, which is why I like the screenshots and the letters of explanation.
Mark Holthe 26:55
And why? Why are they giving instructions like this? You guys, it's because the government never moves quickly with anything related to the portals or technology and the system itself is all designed around self employment that occurs in this country, right here Canada, as being ineligible for CEC. So if you check this off, even though the policy here says you're fine and dandy, if you, if you check this off, right here, you will see that your pro, your portal, your profile, doesn't give you any of the points for Canadian Express, for Canadian experience, and you will be found and eligible for CEC. So that's why they're telling you not to click it. But you know, like Alicia said, that advice is very sound. So there you go, guys, we go to great lengths here. So these are all the different things that doctors often make mistakes with. So when the next time you say, Hey, I got my medical degree, I'm a smarty pants. I don't need to hire some lawyer to help me do this. The reality is, pay attention, and I sure hope you listen to our podcast here, because these are things we see all the time. And in the world of Express Entry and Canadian immigration generally, Alicia, we are in fairly dark times, times where the government is looking for to reduce the numbers, and sure, they don't intentionally want to lose you. But at this stage as a doctor, but at this stage, the system is not designed for compassion, and if you do something wrong, you're either going to be sent back into the pool or you're going to have your application rejected. And you know, all kinds of crazy things happen to you. One tiny mistake can mean the difference in staying in Canada or having to go home. And that's not just doctors, but everyone these days. Any parting words? Alicia, before we wrap up this topic,
Alicia Backman-Beharry 28:47
I guess the parting words are, please book a consult. Please hire us to help you get this right, because there are just so many little things that you would not realize if you're just looking at you know? Oh, well, here's the Express Entry portal page, and here's how I file a profile. There's so many things that are really tricky, and if you are interested in making sure that you get this application correct the first time, it is really important to come in armed with a lot of knowledge and experience, you bet.
Mark Holthe 29:22
Thanks, Alicia, thanks everyone for tuning in to this episode, 166 of the Canadian immigration podcast, and this is within our series of Express Entry getting it right, and you definitely want to do the first time, because you may not get a second chance. All right, everyone take care and good luck as we navigate our way through this crazy world we call Canadian immigration.
Sponsor 29:45
Thank you for listening to the Canadian immigration podcast. Your trusted source for information on Canadian immigration law, policy and practice. If you would like to book a legal consultation, please visit www. Dot Holthe law.com, you can also find lots more helpful information on our Canadian immigration Institute YouTube channel, where you can join mark on one of his many Canadian immigration live Q and A's See you soon, and all the best as you navigate this crazy world we call Canadian immigration. You.
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